Karoshi MSX Community

Well, if anyone checks the MSXdev'05 final results (http://www.robsy.net/result05.htm), you can read some reactions agains the MRC policies inside GuyveR800's comments.

I personally think (and I told him so) that those comments are off-topic, and must have been transmited on other support than inside the MSXdev'05 results. More over, the MRC reactions (http://www.msx.org/MSXdev05-Results.newspost3484.html) have come inmediatelly, even with comments against the contest and some other reactions creating doubts about the main juror's impartiallity in the results.

What are your thoughts about it?. From outside, as a contestant, etc... Note that I'm not talkin' about being agree with his words or not, but when posting them inside the MSXdev'05 results. Robsy, have you got something to say about this?.

Hope everyone contribute with his opinion in a pacific way  ;)

The only shadow that I can think of is that perhaps some people will mix Patriek's opinions with MSXdev'05 organisation's opinions. Some other people will think that Guyver's comments about the games is not impartial because other comments are perhaps a bit more subjective.

But once again, as organizer, all that I can say is that I asked Patriek to be the juror and he accepted. As organizer, I cannot change a single word of Guyver's review. He is the only responsible for his words and I want to publicly thank him for his help: he has done a huge effort and invested a considerable amount of time playing and analysing all the games. Of course, opinions belong to individuals and some people won't share Patriek's point of view.

Please note that I would have prefered to avoid problems - but I prefer to face any further problems rather than breaking my promise of full independence and freedom for the juror.

As I have said in another context (Aiky/Guru Logic thread on MRC), there's apparently no solution possible between MRC and GuyveR800. I must regret it, but that's a fact.

To speak in politician's language, a solution is possible only when both concerned persons (or groups of persons) are searching for a compromise (and in Belgium, we are champions on this matter). Searching for a compromise means that both parties must accept that each person has a part of truth and probably exaggerates and/or dramatises on the rest. In a compromise, there must be no winner, no looser, but only an agreement about a 'middle way' that allows to live together without major problems. When I see the words used by Snout and GuyveR800, there's no any place for a compromise, each person wants to win at 100 %. So, that's the real problem, and that explains why the war's axe is not yet deeply in the ground.

Some words from me:

Unless MSX(-themed) competitions are judged by true outsiders we will never get impartial/unbiased results. Problem there is: do outsiders actually give a fuck about a 20 years old computer standard?

(please add ';)' where appropiate)

Mars: could you please join #msx one of these days? I'd really like to talk to you some time...

somehow the hands are itching to react 8)

Reactions to things:

MSXDev'05 > good .. apparantely we had lot of fun squeezing the last atom from the system, and me going a step back regarding artwork (normally I'm used to opl4/msx2/lotsaRAM etc.) was refreshing/educative..

Guyv being the jury > good .. prolly the best choice since he knows a lot about code, and enough about the other game-related ingredients. No complaints.

Guyv using the report to dig-up issues that are to be solved in private > not smart, really the only one who could possibily be affected by that is no-one else but you, and you alone.

Pitpan not moderating that > To say the least: I would've moderated it .. but that's all imho. Regardless of the contents and the whoisright, it's not the place for a gamecompojuryreport (Scrabble!) to vent it all there..  the golden rule: 'to keep private and business seperated'.


Guyv right here I'm writing, not as the #2 poster @ MRC, not as OP of 'the other channel', not as the 'brainwashed traitor who left #msxdev', (all 3 reasons to make me look suspicious towards you) but as the older wolf_ from, say, 1..1.5 year ago, when we had tons o' good talks on development, games and stuff.. (remember that I also was (or still am? :P ) #2 #msxdev writer.). Because with regards to this challenge, it's a bit like that again. Actually, some week ago I thought about just querying you.. just to ask around a bit how things were going.. perhaps things changed? cooled down? I dunno .. However I decided to wait until after the jury-report .. didn't want to run the risk of being accused for upsucking @ the jury. ^_^

btw, Regarding the game-related report .. I think I can agree with the result .. UU would've been nice competition for TC if it was actually finished and balanced... time.. time.. planning.. next year STAR strikes back for sure!

Anyway.. I kinda was expecting things to have cooled down, or at least 'put away'. I found it kinda surprising to see that 'MRC-part' in that jury-report.. somehow I expected you not to have made peace again with (in the end, only a handful of members of) MRC, but perhaps things had been put away in the 'endless discussion, hence no use'-bin. But apparently it's still on the desk.. And then the language itself.. well seriously .. it's as if nothing changed in this last halfyear. Well, 'as if' .. actually.. just nothing changed.

Do yourself a favour and let it go. Others can live with it.. kinda.. for outsiders it's the regular freakshow, grab the chair, the chips, the coke, and watch the soap. Let it go, do it purely for yourself..


ok .. I think I've made decent/civilised English here .. do me a favour if you want to react: use the same style ..

time to [post] ..

Well, for now I must thank everyone reactin' in this post to make it seriously and without offendin' languaje. I know this kind of troubles well worth sometimes a bad word, but I hope we can keep talkin' this way, freely and with open minds. Again, thanks :).

ok.. list them all then .. I want to see the list .. you talk about 'the continuous lies' .. let's show 'em ..


You're also nearly forgotten @ MRC/forum for that matter.. it's not like ppl keep argueing about the issues forever..


where? how often? do you have recent links?

Which is why I ask you to make that list ..

yes... how mature ..

 :-\

What exactly is it you know about the issue mars? You seem to have an opinion about the issue, and voice your opinion a lot, but do you have *any* of the facts? How is it you seem to know what the solution is (or isn't), when you don't even know what the problem is? "Could you please precise this to me?"

Come on , t00b, don't play so naive !

You know exactly what about I speak, just before GuyveR800 banishment.

This kind of question is just a fake question. Don't play again this game, you are not credible when making that.

Yeah, of course you're not willing to actually answer the question... ;) Let me ask you tho, how credible does that make you?

As you don't answer to my last private message, the discussion is closed.

As you play naive game, communication is impossible.

Adios !

Ok, then explain it to me instead .. because I really don't know it!

Just assume that I know nothing, I'm dumb, I've been living in a cave for the past 2 years..

As stated earlier: I'd like to see a concrete list of all the things that MRC does to Guyver, not a 'find out yourself', not a 'mentioned earlier', not a 'are you blind?' (yes I am!) .. etc.

Just the complete list .., with MRC-links to newsposts/topics when required..

..seriously..

Wolf, this discussion has no sense.

Read again this phrase :

"You know exactly what about I speak, just before GuyveR800 banishment."

The problem begins at this moment and has been many times discussed on MRC. The other events are the consequence of the banishment.

Since 2 months, I'm personnally convicted that there will never be a solution. That's why I've decided to stop with all discussions, attacks, critics, suggestions about this matter. But it's my right to regret the situation. And you can notice that I don't appreciate the bad words used recently by Snout and GuyveR800 ... not only Snout ... not only GuyveR800 ... but both persons.

You're the one that keeps running away. You accuse MRC (and thus me) of doing things, and then refuse to give a single argument. When I ask you to meet with me, you refuse. When I respond to your messages kindly, asking you if we could please discuss this like adults, you refuse. If I ask you to reconsider, you reply with the same old 'encrypted messages' as always.

If you want to leave this subject alone, that's fine, but then leave it alone. Stop accusing MRC of things they didn't do, and stop mentioning the Guyver/MRC or AIKY issue every blimmin chance you get. If you do want to keep talking about it, that's fine too, but then at least have the common courtesey to speak clearly. If you're going to accuse MRC of something, at least be 'kind' enough to actually accuse them of something, not your usual vague insinuations, lacking any content.

Why is it you can't be more specific than that? Why is it you have yet to name a single of your accusations? Why is it you cannot give a simple example of "what we know"? Are you truly so unfair to us that you won't even say what it is we did? I really wonder why.....

To T00b :

It's my right to no more use any IRC channel (not only #msx)

See my answer to Wolf and all the 'old' discussions on MRC.

There's no any attack against MRC in the recent thread about Aiky.

So, where is the objectivity in your words ?

To Wolf :

See the 'old' discussions on MRC

It's just loss of time to repeat the same things and some people don't appreciate that

So, now my rule on this matter is only regret the situation

what I see in the old discussions?

- G overreacting, flaming etc., again and again and again
- MRC applying short bans for bad language, not for the background of it

So exactly what does MRC do wrong towards G ?

Unless no-one can show me a list, there *is* no list .. simple as that ..

So we just have to assume there *is* a list? Even when no-one can show it? Sounds religious!

A: 'there is a god! really!'
B: 'prove it'
A: 'why should I?'
B: 'why should I believe you when you say there is a god then'
A: 'because it is true'


This is the perfect analogy!

The last words define exactly the problem : the context in which some bad words have been expressed by some persons just before the banishment has never been taken in consideration and/or examined by third parties. I had made suggestions that have been seen as impossible by MRC. The rest is history ...

I never said it's not your right to do what ever it is that pleases you most. All I did was ask you to please have a chat with me on IRC so we could talk about this issue. The fact that you refuse to do so tells me you must be very worried about what you would say in a 'face to face' conversation, probably because you have nothing to say. As usual, you fail to answer any of my questions. You fail to answer any questions regarding the matter. I know why, I just wanted everyone else to know why as well.

I never said you attacked MRC in the recent Aiky post. I only said that you seem to enjoy keeping these kinds of subjects under close attention at all times. Just when things have calmed down, you find the need to dig up an old 'war'. You say you regret the situation, but take every chance you get to remind people of it.

You keep saying MRC is unwilling to resolve the issue, yet you have absolutely no idea what happened, what MRC did or did not do, nor what MRC has or has not attempted to do to resolve or aggravate the issue. You made up your mind before knowing the facts, and now that you're slowly learning the facts, you're too embarrased to admit you might have been wrong. You are continually dismissive of MRC, negative in general, keep up digging old issues to see if you can somehow make matters worse, and have yet to point out a single thing MRC may have done to aggravate the matter.

When I ask you to 'meet in private', you refuse. And when I'm then forced to call you out in public, you don't wish to answer any of the questions you are asked and conveniently dismiss them with a "you know what I'm talking about". My dear friend, I do know what I am talking about. The question is: do you?

ROFL! What are you implying? That MRC should ask you for permission when someone else calls a site admin a 'fascist' and likens the way he was treated to the persecution of the Jews by the nazis? You're just too sweet. But let me guess, calling an admin a 'fascist' is probably not something you should ban someone for, is it?

To answer to your last question : for me, all depends from the context, but of course I should also wait for excuses before to 'forget' the incident if the context can 'explain' an exaggerate reaction

For the rest, here's the text of my last private message :

"I don't think that you have read my last reactions very carefully. Since I'm convicted (and it's recent) that no any solution will resolve the problem, I've decided to simply regret the situation without entering again in a round of suggestions, critics, attacks, etc ... Constating and regretting a situation is not an attack, comparing the situation with politician's attitude is not an attack. As I've said, compromise is impossible. Both Snout and GuyveR800 have used very bad words in their recent messages, I must also regret it, because it's not the good way to go to a compromise. Read again my last phrase : what I say concerns also GuyveR800, not only Snout. So, I think that I try to be objective. And to come to the origin of the problem, three persons should present excuses before that a compromise should be possible. But again, it's impossible and too late (more than 1 year after the events)."

Eveyone can now try to understand your strange reading of my message.

Yeah, but as usual, no content... Empty words... I did not ask you for your opinion on how the problem could or could not  be fixed. I asked you if we could please talk some day to go over the problem. I asked you to please hear my/our side of the story, before you make up your mind. I asked you to please listen to what it is I/MRC has to say. I ask you to take all events into account before judging us. And in reponse to those questions, that's the kind of message I get. When I ask you to pass the salt, do you tell me what time it is in reply?

I don't have refused this discussion, it can be done by private messages, but I'll never use IRC again.

So if you see my answer as negative, you're wrong. Excuse me, but you are twisting the reality.

Well, as you can see, posting messages over and over again is not the fastest way to discuss things. On the other hand, at least this way people can see how you refuse to answer any of the questions you are asked. I think I'm done with you now, pending any reply of yours that is. I think everyone has seen that your accusations against MRC are just plain 'baseless' and really 'slander'. ;)

On IRC, the discussion would be more dynamic tho .. better reply 10x on 10 single lines than 1x with w huge chunk o' text ..

Or are you affraid of Socrates-style questions? :P

T00b : you are only proving that real communication about serious problems with MRC is impossible, because MRC thinks that he must be right at 100 %. No compromise possible ....

Wolf : I have taken some extra-security measures since my PC was attacked by a trojan. The rest is only interpretation.

It is good to see that Karoshi's forum is a warm place even in winter.  :(

This is a free forum and we want to keep it without moderation. Anyway, our main focus is game development. Perhaps all this extensive thread has not much to do with it, don't you think so?  ;)

Please share the joy of playing the newest MSX games available and do not exploit the fun by continuing quarrels that were started a long time ago. Thank you.

Why is communication impossible? Just because I ask questions that are difficult for you to answer? I didn't say MRC is 100% right. I only said that in order for you to say MRC is not right, you must at least say why! You can't just say "you are wrong" without saying WHY... It's called argumentation. If you ask me a question, you'll see I'll try to answer it as good as possible. When I ask you a question, you avoid the subject and start talking about something else. Wouldn't that suggest that you're the one who wants to be 100% right, without even supplying a single argument?

I will do as you ask, of course, this is your house, and I'll follow your rules when I'm here. Permit me to ask you one question though: who started this thread?

Robsy, you're right ! Playing MSX games, developing blueMSX or creating new pages for my site are really better things than a discussion that leads nowhere, when all the problems are known, all the suggestions have been made (and ignored) and all the consequences have followed.

After more than one year of this situation, it's really too late to find a solution, give additionnal infos or make a miracle. So, let's go back to our real MSX activities :)

Heya, partner! :D

Sorry, but I must disagree with you ;). Here at Karoshi Corp. forums we strongly lived the MSXdev'05 process in the creation of the games, the latest days of hard work and all the reactions when all games came: it's normal to comment the results impresions. And as GuyveR800 has paste inside the results some personal comments, I just wanted to ask everyone how do they feel about those words at the MSXdev'05 results document. So, I guess this thread is on-topic, after all.

It's true that both t00b and mars2000you are going a step further, trying to solve/explain old fights, or guessin' if GuyveR's words are true or false. For me it's no problem if they do it with an open mind and kind words ;). It's true that we do not want moderation here, but for now I think people in this thread are actin' ok and I see no reason to close the discussion.

Regards,

PD.- Hey Edu, drop me an email to start plannin' 2006 ;)

It's interesting... Who should "let it go"?

Even on this forums the MRC admins continually refer to that ONE message I posted with the word 'fascist' in it.
First, as I have explained many times, that message was meant purely satirical, but has been taken way too seriously.
Second, it's always being exaggerated, because I never said a lot of the the things that I'm accused of (here and elsewhere).

MRC continually refers to this old issue, and Wolf_ should tell MRC to "let it go" in stead of me.

The problem I have with MRC is one that started before the ban, that everything I said (even positive things) was taken in a negative way by some MRC admins and users.
Ultimately it results in my satirical message. And exaggerated parody meant to make the point clear. Obviously MRC didn't recognise the EXTREME EXAGGERATION and took it 100% literally and without humour and banned me...
Again, my words were interpreted in the most negative way and I lost the ability to defend myself on MRC completely.

(Note that other people have encountered the same problems with MRC, being flamed by MRC admins that took their constructive criticism as an attack... You can find several of these situations in their archives and MRC has even apologised to some people for it.)

Then the problems intensified, their attacks towards me intensified and they spoke more and more lies.
I posted about this on the MSX Mailinglist, but was flamed, told it was off-topic, and that I should go somewhere else.
So I started posting on alternative MSX forums, but was flamed, told it was off-topic, and that I should go somewhere else.
So I started things only on IRC, to a select group of people. But a lot of them flamed me, said it was off-topic, that I needed to get my head examined, etc etc etc.. So I stopped doing that too.

I stopped saying bad things about about MRC for a long time, aside from the occassional joke on IRC. I even stopped visiting MSX fairs in order to avoid bad words and let things cool down.

So I don't understand why people keep saying "GuyveR800 and MRC both said bad things", because I am not attacking them. I'm merely saying they are attacking me. Lying about me, accussing me of things I didn't do.

Now you want to know what those things are... There we arrive at the "let it go" part again. I've "let it go" for the most part, so I do not keep an archive of all bad things they say.
I do not want to invest the TIME and ENERGY it takes to make a list of all lies, because that would make me more depressed and I can better invest that time to create software for MSX.
Frankly, this is the same reason I have not sued them.

Being unable to post about this at MRC, the MSX Mailinglist, other public MSX forums, IRC or other forms of internet communication, my only option is to ACCEPT BEING ATTACKED REGULARLY!
That would mean seeing the MRC as a gossip magazine, a tabloid... But there is a problem with that. MRC is read by 3000+ people per day, most of which will believe what MRC writes.

You can see this is a vicious circle. Hopefully you can also see how unfair it is, as MRC's public is orders of magnitude larger than that of any platform I've written on.

Even the people that know the truth, because they were there, do not dare say anything anymore, because they have been called 'Anti-MRC' and 'sheep following GuyveR800 mindlessly' and 'brainwashed by GuyveR800'... While I can understand those people not opening their mouths anymore to protect themselves, it does leave me in a more painful position.

... It's a popular thing to say "GuyveR800 did nothing but flame people on MRC"... I've read it even in this thread.
But it's not true... I posted more than 3000 messages there, most of which were helpful.
I've helped literally hundreds of people with MSX problems on MRC and in private. I've probably invested more hours in helping others (giving information, suggesting solutions to problems, even debugging their code!!) than all of MRC staff combined! I've motivated dozens of people to start programming or to take on challenging projects, and stood by them all the way...

I feel betrayed, abandoned, unwanted.

I see now it was a mistake for me to step back into the public eye by accepting the job as judge for MSXdev'05. It was an even bigger mistake to join this forum and speak in the public again. The only result has been more lies and accusations.

The optimist side of me still hopes that the things I've mentioned in the MSXdev'05 contest judges report will stop. MRC is doing it and unless they live in a fantasy world they will be aware that they are doing it, so they are the only ones who can stop it.
The pessimist side of me thinks this message is just another big mistake, as no doubt MRC admins and their followers will find more ways to twist the truth and twist my words. They know they have the audience, and somehow they've managed to build trust...

So I'm fucked...

The only thing left for me to say is this: Farewell!

Well, quite simply: you just don't say that.. period. I mean, in the whole history of guyver@MRC-pepper, this was by far the darkest event.
MRC is an international portal (or what whatever you'll call it) .. no doubt there are MSX'ers, MRC-readers, who are kinda sensitive to those kinda words, more than others. I can clearly imagine MRC moderating that text away and banning you. Esp. since Bart (to whom the thread was aimed) got remarks of his colleages @ work, who're prolly not MSX'ers at all! This is clearly an example of a valid ban.. no matter how you twist and turn it.


You have a twisted view on the world if you think someone can take that message as 'not so seriously' ..


Well, and that summarizes everything I think, you clearly don't know how you appear at the other side of a posted message. If you assume you're mild/joke'ish/satirical, you could as well appear extremely rough.


In a way MRC does .. since you're as good as 'void' on the forum/newsposts. The snout-reaction from a few days ago was purely a reaction to the content of the jury-report, which you started.

You're unbanned.., tho I don't expect you back there anyway, knowing you..
As for the things you said .. see above .. it's your style which is a bit on the edge in some situations, and you know I've mentioned that @ IRC and @ query.., ages ago..
Can't you imagine that your style in those situations builds-up a certain 'image' of 'guyver800'? (and it's everyone who creates that image, not just admins) Unintended perhaps, but the image is there. Once you have such an image, things you say can be intepreted as extreme. And that's where a little snowball becomes an avalance..

Let's keep that in the middle, until we (the ppl who you think are against you) actually know something about it..


You've a reference? (date? year? etc.) can't recall that, but I've no problem finding it if I know what to look for.. lately I skip the ML a bit since it's almost dead..


Alltho I'm not signed-up for posse, I do tend to read it now and then, so I know the thread you're prolly referring to.. the thread while MRC was hacked while you were on holiday .. right? Again, ppl tried to be nice to you, tried to keep things calm, heck even to take away the accusions of you being the hacker, still you returned and continued with that typical overreacted style again ...  welcome home, how was your holiday? .. *sigh* Well, no shit Sherlock, but ppl don't want that.. not on MRC, not on Posse.

Can't say much about this since I don't know about which IRC-period you're talking now .. as in, I dunno what all hapaned @ #msxdev in the past .. half year orso?


Indeed, it was quiet for a while, which is why I expected (see my first post) that things might had cooled down a bit.. if you didn't add the MRC-issue in that jury-report, everything would be perfect, and you'd even have gathered a symbolical (+1) from me, 'forum-jargon'-wise ..
The fair thing .. well, dunno, iirc no-one was really bothered of you not being there. The only one who's bothered is prolly you.


So, putting that MRC-issue in the report is 'not attacking them' ? Esp. the style, and again the fascist-word is the perfect example of what I meant with 'other side of the text' (see above). If you think that's normal writing, then you're wrong. Simple as that .. don't believe me? Take all this lot to a communication-expert and ask him/her for a 3rd party view on the matter.


Had you not put the MRC-issue in that report, I would've prolly believed you, up to a certain level perhaps, but at least more than nothing..


If you get a million euro from the lottery, even then you won't sue them.. mark my words..


You are able to post about it, just make sure
- you aren't being banned
- you keep it unpepperised


Again, you're largely forgotton @ MRC-users, and admins tend to forget you as well .., the only reason Snout reacted few days ago, because you triggered the issue again.


I could react on the latter arguement, but I decide to skip it for now .. need to think whether I react on that (and how .. I prefer mature debates) ..


Yes, Clinton was not a really bad president (even Saddam confessed that, how's that!), but that single cigar did ruin his carreer .. once more a reason to watch your style, because if you have a bad rep. then it's purely because of that 5% text which was pepperised.

ppl, users and admins will always agree that you were most helpful on msx-support. No doubt about that..
Keep in mind tho that 'helping alot' doesn't give you more rights, esp. not more rights to use pepper-language..


No, being jury wasn't wrong, it was actually an opportunity to receive a (+1) .. forumspeak, but you ruined it yourself by using the report as a means to bring back the same old issues again. I think there's no-one who seriously thinks you were a bad choice to judge the games.. really.


well, dunno if it's a mistake, it's at least a means to talk things over, as far as that does even matter anymore..


In your case it's called 'masterbation', really      ( <- and that was a joke you should hopefully appreciate  ^_^ )



tjaaaaa..

I'd like to add something to all this. I hoped the whole issue would have cooled down over time. MRC has released Guyver his ban months ago, Guyver also kept quiet regarding MRC the last months. Reading Guyver his MSXdev'05 report made me sad though, because it shows Guyver is still very bittered. It also makes me sad to see that Guyver his reactions regarding this issue on MSX forums and in his MSXdev'05 jury report only makes things worse for him. I believe he doesn't really deserve that.

I'd like you to know that Guyver his contributions to MRC have not been for 95% positive, but for 98%. In the past, Guyver was very positive towards MRC, he did not always agree with our moderation policy though. This was enough reason for him to apply as an MRC moderator. Because of his very outspoken way of behaving online, it was decided within the MRC team not to welcome him as an MRC moderator. From there, the relation between Guyver and MRC cooled down.

The focus in these discussions has always been this MRC ban because of his 'fascist' remark. The situation is a bit more complex than just that, as you can read above. I personally believe Guyver deserves a better position in the current MSX scene.

In short, I'd really like to see this ongoing feud to stop. It destroys both MRC and Guyver. It's about time we solve it once and for all. I just really don't know how to do that.

t00b: Received your moderation alert. You were true, but since I let the discussion to continue I decided not to moderate it  ;). Regards. (note=still searchin'  ;))

Anyway Viejo, i agree there's nothing to moderate since you brang it on... Now let it go until the end  :-\

I'd like to add something myself.
You all seem to have forget one thing : Irc, Forums and ML are just numbers and letters on a screen nothing less nothing more !!
When i see how hard everyone have been overreacting to all this story, it's simply ludicrous

Sometimes by reading all those posts you all made about the Guyv-Bart incident, when you consider the lenght of them, when you consider the time you spent in reacting, chatting, i can't prenvent myself from being frightened ! Seriouslyyyyyyyy, don't you have better things to do ?
I'm watching you and i'm like : " Hey Doods ! Get a life please ! "  ;D
Do you realise how serious you are about this crap ?

Guyver800 said to bart he's a discriminating fascit ?
LOL ! SO FUCKING WHAT ?
How dare he ? That was so hilarious...
It's a personal attack to a MRC mod ? OH MY GOD ! Will the world collapse then ? ;D
I've seen bart acting realy dumb from time to time, in fact i've seen ALL OF YOU acting like assholes from time to time and of course... i've acted myself like a real naked-st00pid-morron sometimes !  8)

What i mean is simple, we all have positive and negative things in our respective personalities.
We just have to accept each other as we are, it's that simple... If you can't bear with it, don't build communities or don't visit them, cause if you can be armed that easily by numbers and letters on a screen, you might quickly visit a doctors and beg for pills imho ! :D

I can't believe the msx became so serious, not that msx doesn't deserve some serious attention... but doods, that's not because some ppl put great efforts in the msx scene or revival or whatever we should act and react as if we were working at microsoft headquarters.  :o

I realise there are very few ppl out there who realize HOW PAINFUL it can be for Guyver800 to be roughly rejected and banned from a community in which he was very active and contributing. I don't see the point in rejecting ppl because they have a strong temper, because they use straight words or simply because they are different, if you guys can't bear with ppl like Guyv and feel offended that easily, then again don't build communities, or at least don't moderate it, that's my advice !
And if as a simple forum, irc or ml user Guyver gets on your nerves, don't read him !  :D

It's totaly useless to discuss and argue eternaly to find a flaw in the way guyver800 act... And this it pointless to try to teach him a lesson or to try to use what he says against him... Try to figure out who realy suffer from the situation, and just accept ppl as they are  :)

I've seen everyone agreeing how kind Guyv was IRL, so why would it be different online ? Especialy when using numbers and letters on a screen...
There are people around here which never had the slightest problem with guyv even when being 24/7 on his channel, and trust me this is not because he forced anything into us or because we are his pets, it's just because we know the man and we accept him as he is... With pros and cons...

By posting this thread, that don't mean i'm against anyone... I've seen ppl taking sides since this story started, personaly i won't cause it's just numbers and letters on a screen and all of this is LUDICROUS !!  :o

Anyway, i love you all... Analy... And naked !  :-*
With that am off O_o

J-W :D

J-War, your point of view is very interesting. I have maybe wasted some energy in this problem, and that's why after more than one year after the events, I've decided to limit my reactions to constating and regretting the situation.

Because I had in the past some misunderstandings on MRC with GuyveR800 and because I had finallly found a gentleman's agreement with him OUTSIDE MRC, without the intervention of any moderator, I've always thought (and I still think) that the problems before and around GuyveR800's banishment by MRC have been probably managed on a very bad manner.

Of course, MRC is not a democracy, it's a free community that shares a passion for MSX and accepts some rules for a good working of the forums especially. MRC can decide what he wants, it's not my affair. But when it touches someone for which I've discovered a great sympathy, I can at least try to suggest a better way to resolve such problem. All my suggestions were viewed as impossible or ludicrous. I couldn't accept that as I had made the personal proof that a gentleman's agreement with GuyveR800 was possible, if you speak sincerely with him, without trying to be right at 100 %. That's why I speak of compromise. Are now both parties ready for a compromise ? That's the question.

Ooof, it's nice to -discuss- things about this matter somewhere else then MRC :P Anyway, in reply to Mars2k. MRC -has- made steps in trying to resolve things. You may remember Latok's attempt to talk things over (http://www.msx.org/forumtopic5089.html)? Also Guyver's ban was removed long time ago, which should be seen as another step in solving things. Guyver knows well what we ask of him, which is an apology. But it seems that you agree with us on the fact that Guyver should apologize (refering to your first sentence in http://www.msxgamesbox.com/karoshi/index.php?topic=42.msg331#msg331).

Anyway we can talk about this for ages, but you all visit MRC regurarly so you can all see 'what we have been doing to Guyver' in the period of his ban. The only conclusion you can draw is: nothing. Facts speak for themselves.

Anyone fancies a "MRC NO!" button btw? ;) (joke people, joke! :))

That's right.

In the same post, I also precise this :

"And to come to the origin of the problem, three persons should present excuses before that a compromise should be possible"

I let you guess which are the 2 other persons but to avoid all confusion, the first person that must apologize from my point of view is GuyveR800.

Which has been our point of view for the past 14 months already, thank you...

There's one small thing I'd like to add to this discussion... GuyveR800 states he's "fucked", but I really doubt if that's the truth. As far as I can see, nobody is actually rejecting him anywhere. As I don't visit IRC channels, I can't speak for that, but the only thing that I have seen rejected is the ongoing discussion about this subject. If GuyveR800 would behave himself as he did before all this started, probably nobody would reject him anywhere. Look at Wolf's statement about the '+1 if he had'nt mentioned the MRC issue in the jury report'. I believe with quite some certainty that this is how most people feel about it. GuyveR800 is not rejected as a person, but everyone has become tired of the 'MRC-GuyveR' thing (which is quite comprehensible, considering the fact that it has come up quite some times but every time it does come up, it doesn't get any closer to a solution).

Apart from that, there's little I can add to the already extensive discussion in this thread. Although I agree with t00b that Mars2000you's posts tend to lack argumentation, I do agree with Mars' "let it rest" attitude. A solution for this problem is probably nowhere to be found.

Rikusu, thanks for your last words !

There was indeed a time for argumentation and I've made that on MRC directly after GuyveR800 's banishment. T00b seems to have forgotten this discussion and the fact that all my suggestions were viewed as impossible or ludicrous.

If the private forum to discuss with 'selected guests' the problem had been installed, then the first thing that I should have said in this private forum was about the required apologies from 3 persons and first from GuyveR800 to make possible a compromise. I couldn't at this moment be so explicit on a public forum, because I had (and I've still) my doubts about the validity of the decision about the banishment. Because now GuyveR800 is unbanned, I can finally be explicit on a public forum. So it means that MRC attitude what concerns my suggestions has blocked all real discussion more than one year !

As I had argumented at this time and as it was neglected (sometimes with very bad words), my next reactions on subjects linked to this problem were indeed less argumented. And after more than one year of this situation, it's no more the time for argumentation, but only for constating the situation and regretting it. I think that alas t00b can't understand that.

..which sounds like it's time for me to drop a line or two as well..

Simply put: There are only two parties that know exactly what has been going on during the months (!) before, during and after the decision to ban GuyveR800 for the second time on the MSX Resource Center. These two parties are the MRC admin team, and GuyveR800. Banning GuvyeR800 wasn't something done for one single (though very rude, and often repeated without an inch of sarcasm) remark, but from a long line of situations and behaviour we at the MRC were completely fed up with. Knowing all ins and outs of the situation, I am 100% completely sure that the private forum mars2000you proposed would not have solved a single bit of the problem. Of course you can interpret that as a 'MRC does not want to solve the situation', and I have the feeling mars2000you does (or at least did), but nothing could be further from the truth. We have tried many things to ease the situation and to prevent it from escalating (the first ban was removed for a reason) such as chats, lots of mails and even an IRL meeting, but in the end it just did not help. As GuyveR800 refused to take even one single step back and the situation was causing us to lose sleep and highly demotivated us in continuing with the MRC, we were left with little other options, if any.

All we have ever asked from GuyveR800 is for an apology in order to be able to continue the discussions. Not for an 'MRC is 100% right', but at least an 'I was not 100% right'. I personally have the feeling the situation would and could have cooled down much sooner if there weren't so many people constantly trying to push either MRC or GuyveR800 into new statements and actions on the situation, yet am highly disappointed by the words GuyveR800 chose to use in the MSXdev'05 report. I hope he does cool down one day. Meanwhile I've tried to bypass -my- permban on #msxdev in order to have a chat with GuyveR800 that might help in things easing down as well, but so far I did not manage to be online at the same time as Guyv's. Perhaps the whole situation isn't as hopeless as it looks, and I'm afraid it can't get a lot worse than this either...

As this option has not been tried, it's difficult to know if you are right or wrong. There were 2 advantages with this private forum even if his results could have been minor :

- avoiding to discuss such sensitive matter on public forums (on MRC or elsewhere) should have been a good incidence on the general discussion between both parties and some 'selected guests' without the interference of people only interested by making very bad remarks about the position of the people who wanted to find a better solution than a permanent banning (finally limited to one year)
- it was very important to GuyveR800 to have the opportunity to defend himself and the fact to present his defense in the presence of 'selected guests' was also for him the opportunity to be ready to apologise first in this private area, then publicly ... as this right was him then refused, it can explain for a great part the situation that is still without definitive good solution (and probably will remain like that)

This was very well possible in private. I don't see why other people need to get their noses into other people's business, like you suggest. People often have good intentions but are mostly only stirring things up. Like Snout said, the general public has mostly only been forcing either MRC or Guyver in taking action, while shutting up was probably the wisest.



And he has done so. Over and over.. we all have heard the stories about the big bad MRC over and over again. Don't worry, his side of the story -has- been heard. It's the MRC story that actually has never been -fully- told. Don't expect us to do so either, though.



Come on, you can't be serious about that. Apologies which are not spoken out but kept silent are no apologies at all.


Anyway, you already said it, Snout said it, I said it... I think it's clear now: Guyver needs to apologize to MRC first, then we can take further steps.

To start with the original question, I don't think it's a good thing GuyveR800 has written those remarks in the MSXdev'05 report. However given GuyveR800's feelings about the MRC, I fail to see how he could have written anything nice about the MRC.

The second question raised in this thread is how to resolve this ongoing conflict. I do not think it will be resolved by cooling down.
The only advice I can give here is that the parties in this conflict first need to find out, and to agree upon, what this conflict is actually about. It seems that there is more to it than the intermittent insults and allegations I see as an outsider.
Obviously even this first step is not possible without reestablishing some form of communication between GuyveR800 and the MRC.
Shouldn't apologies be made? --- They probably should, but that's part of the intervention, which is the second step.

Just some wisdom taken from a book.

Both parties are very well aware of what the conflict is actually about. I already stated that in the post preceding yours. It's the outsiders who actually lack that knowledge. Which is prolly why you suggest us to find out.

I kinda keep repeating myself here, but, again, MRC has taken steps in reestablishing communcation.

Anyways, thanks for thinking along. :)

Did anyone read J-War's reaction?. I must say I am quite agree with him: MSX is hobby, why not everybody start to run naked in a field of flowers and stop takin' things too seriously? (both GuyveR and the MRC crew)  :D

Guess I'll stick my oar in too, everyone else has and I'd hate to be left out like some unwanted pygmy.

I guess J-War has hit the nail on the head pretty much, the only thing I can add is that if badness goes on for long enough it stops being about why and just becomes the way it's always been because that's the way it is. (if that makes any sense)

There's some pretty deep routed anger going on and of course the parties concerned have their justification for their perspective, this of course is the primary basis for any human conflict.

Some times things go wrong and there's no fix. Sometimes there is a fix.  If there is it alludes me for now.

So I'm going to grab my HX-10 and get on the next flight to france and RNFF.

I suggest everyone else does this too.

As an outsider I lack knowledge about the conflict indeed and I admit that both parties know what the conflict is about for themselves.
The reason I have made this suggestion is that I think that the parties probably do not really know what the conflict is about for the other. I suggested you not only to find out but also to agree upon what this conflict is actually about.

 ;D