Karoshi MSX Community

Congratulations to every contestant in another great MSXdev edition where we had fun learning and playing brand new MSX games!

And of course, congratulations to Nerlaska Studio for being the winner!!!

It appears msxdev is not addressed to the world msx community but to the sole karoshi users and to their inner fights.
No idea of what you have with ramones but changing deadlines and rules on going as you did ... please...

I think you have definitively spoiled the reputation of this contest and my fun in making games.
Congratulation to you.

Ramones vote was not fair :

- where is the rule to make comparison with Konami (and other great companies) games ? It is not in the spirit of the contest since the beginning of its existence.
- where is the rule to impose Toshiba VDP compatibility ? This VDP is non-standard and comes only on some machines, so testing the games only on these machines and giving only 1 point for non-Toshiba compatibility is not acceptable.

To avoid misunderstandings : I react here only as personal MSX fan, as I'm no more co-organizer of the contest, but I support completely the decision taken by Jon.

Apart fairness or not in ramones post (let me at least say it is matter of opinions), he first said the deadline is the 2nd (ok technical reasons) than yesterday he said deadline is moved to the the 3rd (look at updated in the rules)  http://karoshi.auic.es/index.php/topic,2501.0.html now he colsed at 8:40.

Piloting results in not fair as well (and this is not matter of opinions).
Actually after having cancelled my votes I was going to withdraw our entry when he closed the competition.

I think cancelling your own votes was not a good move, for sure not in the spirit of the contest. I say that more freely because I don't have voted myself, but I could have changed my mind before the deadline, for example to react against unfair Ramones vote, but I don't have done that as I wanted to be consistent in my decision to not vote this year.

The last modified date of the Rules message is day 30 of past month, where the day 3rd of this month was stated and written.

I am pretty sad that you can see this date change, along with discard votes that clearly goes against the spirit of the contest and that were set in name of a group, as a try to change results... but it isn't. Really. I do not see the difference on winning one game or another. If those decisions have altered the rank in another form, I would have taken them the same way I did.


Anyway, I think is time to congratulate the winner.

Thank you to all the people support in this contest ... the important is the MSX and continue working and giving support to this system.
Really the winner are all the MSX users and we must continue believing and working from our side and with our capabilities on it.
Thank you Jon for your efforts and inconditional support to the system. We hope you continue working in more MSXDevs.
I am very happy specially for my team colleagues, they are deserving of this award.

And please ... we must be constructive people always .. all the games in this contest were made with care and love for the MSX.
We are not Konami, we are not Compile .. don't mind that.
The important is the minutes in the week, the hours in the month, the days in the year that all the people here gives to the MSX support.
We should continue working in this way .. the MSX people is great!

And now .. go for MSXDev'15!!!

Indeed, the most important thing is that we have several new good games ... and a winner who is winner for the 2nd time, always with the good MSX spirit in mind and the good Konami feeling in action. BRAVO to Nerlaska !!! :)

Congratulations to the winner.

I don't know Ramones but I respect a lot his work. When I saw he was voted I was very interested in his opinion. When I read the votes I thought "come on... I think it's not necessary to be so destructive. There are no evil submiting this games." I think he can offer more than this to the MSX but, eh! he has no obligation! All this words are to say that then I thought: I don't want to continue making games for MSX. As a child, I know. It's funny because I have been (internally) so critical with developers that, for one or two persons, claim in many forums that they leave MSX development, like (sorry for them) an angry child. But yesterday I understood them a bit more.

But I've been thinking about it and no, I'm not a child. I'm starting to finish MSX games and I like it. Of course I want to do games for people play them. If a lot of people say that they are a shit, I will do other things, of course. But for two or three persons I will not leave it. Well, two or three in MSX community maybe are a big percent :P ... You understand...


I can understand your disagreement. But congratulations for your good work in Uridium. For me the important are the promotion of the game, the good opinions and the bad-constructive opinions. In fact, I compiled the bad-constructive opinions to improve the game ("No game" is not a constructive opinion, sorry   ;) . It not helps but I already know there is no obligation in help).

Congratulations for the organization of the contest. Maybe I'm not agree with some decisions but this does not detract from the good work.

Congratulations for the Nerlaska team!!  ;)

Lies.
Toshiba VDP perfectly complies with the MSX standard.

In fact, all software that depends on UNDOCUMENTED BEHAVIOUR not described in the MSX standard is not fully MSX compatible. As this is a MSX contest, these games should have been disqualified until they were fixed to comply with the MSX standard.

congratulations to nerlaska about Pretty Kingdom!

btw, as well i also think that conflicts and unvoting is really not needed - what i see amazing in this contest is to keep the msx retro scene alive, and having joy and fun in it

and of course principles, attitudes, motivations and beliefs from each participant might vary - some people here figured out that, for example, from me, i didn’t care (for now) to polish and finish my own games (for a lot of reasons, incompetency and being not skilled enough are some that i humbly assume), my motivation were, not only for help keeping this scene alive, to share that amazingly neat (imho) cross-compiler that Boriel’s ZX-Basic Compiler is, and perhaps to share some ideas that people might want to improve based on that (or not necessarily), and humbly try to be more risky, unusual and artistic on the "game" (the quotes on "game" was because some comments from some people here about what i submitted here) development process

and yes, i hope seeing this yearly contest alive for the next decades, for our whole lifetime! \o/

The question of if the Toshiba VDP complies with the standard is not simple. MSX Thecnical Data Book claims that de VDP have to be a TMS9918A or compatible. Texas instruments has documented the behavior of mask bits that affect the 'Mixed mode' in their official books for accelerating action in games, and succesors of the chip mantain the compatibility. So, in my own opinion, the Toshiba isn't a 'compatible' TMS.

Congratulations to Nerlaska Team !!!!!  :)

Yeah !!  ;)

Congratulations to nerlaska! Well deserved!  :)


100% agree. Transform and roll out!

Congratulations to all the teams and especially for the winner!

MSXdev'14 has brought us a bunch of new MSX titles and that was the original spirit that materialized the MSXdev contest: to let us all enjoy brand new productions for our first generation computers in this century.

Of course, different teams have produced different titles, according to their available spare time, knowledge and resources. Sadly, and as in any contest, it is the result that has to be judged and not the relative efforts. I hope that you all understand that.

In its now already long history, MSXdev has changed and adapted, but some problems are, in a way, hard to solve: how to deal with "compatibility issues" and the jury/voting system. In my opinion, compatibility is important but not paramount at the time being. And about the voting system, I think that the one currently used is quite good: an overall score not directly related to the individual aspects, that is cast, shared and explained/justified in a public forum. This provides transparency but can also lead to people trying to "game" the system.

I'd also like to thank the organizers, that's it, Jon aka viejo_archivero, for keeping the contest alive and devoting long hours to the management of the forum and contest. He has had to take difficult decisions and he has been forced to deal with controversies that were born far from this forum and brought here. Please be supportive: as a moderator/organizer is not easy to deal with these situations and *any* line of action would be eventually misinterpreted by some. Even if he doesn't need it, he has my full support in this particular case and in any future controversies. As organizer he has to assume difficult decisions and I want to publicly thank him for doing it.

And let me just ask you one question: which of the following options do you prefer?

1) No new games at all.
2) New games, even if some of them could be a bit buggy, not that good and/or have some compatibility issues under some circumstances.

I'd vote 2. And I guess that most of you will also choose the same.

And, in any case, keep the fun and please don't bash neither the programmers nor the contest itself.

Thank you all.

P.S: Looking forward for MSXdev'15!

It is simple. It's totally compatible. Never Konami, Compile, HAL, ASCII, Casio, Namcot and any other had a problem with that VDP cause they respect the standard. Even the crappy spectrum conversions worked on that VDP without a problem.
At the end, if you decide to use that mode, it's your choice and I have to respect it. But give an 1 for that is my choice too. Giving a 9 or 10 to a game that doesn't deserves it seems respectable but giving an 1 doesn't?

Btw... almost forgot!

Congrats to the winner!

Congratulations to the winner, Nerlaska, and all the rest for all his work!!!

These days, I haven't had much free time, so I only had the chance to play the games at the RU, but I have to say that this moment was so funny, like a boy with new shoes.

Playing a lot of new games in the "arcade area" translated me to my childhood. Thanks to all, and long life to MSX!!!  :laugh:

I wrote from my mobile phone as I was working but it seems something went wrong  ???

So again: congratulations to all participants and specially to Nerlaska and his team. We now have some good new games to play with :)

I was trying to reply on the other thread, but it is closed. Too bad, because now the Winner thread is spoiled with other things. So, to start: congratulations, Nerlaska!

Said that, two things. First, I fully agree with AR.
Second: that's the text I tried to post to the other thread before realizing it was closed:

I don't have seen any unpolite things, but I consider insulting for the coders who have given so much time and passion to create a new game to get only 1 point as final score when the concerned game is really playable on almost all MSX (and higher) machines, with exception for a few machines equipped with the Toshiba VDP. This extreme severity is an obvious sign of no-respect of their work. When I compare attitude of coders, I prefer the positive approach of Imanok and Jon for example.

Sad to hear it MrSpock: I hope sometime you could see that all I want to do is just to make the spirit of the contest prevail, by facing both easy decisions and harder ones. I've been doing it since years and I will keep on doing it.

We can agree more or less with Jon's decision but I think it's good to keep in mind that who is adding, creating and dedicating efforts (and not breaking) for the MSX scene is Jon.

Sorry, but I don't understand the argument of somebody, castigating too much games because don't work well with some VDP in one side, and comparing them with them with big companies' games in the other...

Is this a development contest or something else? Please, "keep calm and develop MSX games"   :griel:

And again, congratulations to Nerlaska!!!  ;)

Well, I don't understand why to make a game -on purpose- that doesn't work on all MSX when you can make a game that works on all MSX as rules say.
And as I don't understand that, I can't vote with more than 1 those games. I understand and respect if you vote with more, but I can't vote myself with your opinion, I have to vote with mine.

Of course, that's a matter of taste. I myself found that some of their votes were too low. About the "game not working on strange MSX configurations"... they should work. And, as long as the contest rules do not clarify this issue, it is correct for the users to vote them down. Prior to submitting my game on 2007 (wow... 7 years!) I spend a *lot* of time to make it fully compatible with all MSX. So... should the games that made this effort be rated using the same criteria than those that did not made the effort? If so why should anybody do the effort?

Nevertheless, that's not the problem. The problem is invalidating their votes and banning them with sort of "take care of your business" message.

So, I may not agree with their votes, but I do agree with their reasons. And I am sad about the decision of "banning" them because their opinion is not the same as the official forum opinion. Sorry to say that, but this gives me the feeling that this is sort of private Karoshi forum rather than an open MSX forum.


Jon, it is not a matter of easy or hard decisions. It's a matter of correct decisions, and in this case yours is not. Your point of view about MSX may be different from mine, and mine for sure is different from Kralizec, but that's not a reason neither for your message neither for invalidating their votes. The right thing to do is to admit your error and say so in the forum.

And you, and all the contestants, and Kralizec, and me...

Sorry, my position is pretty clear about this. Thank you anyway for trying to help me on doing what you think it's right!



Nah, not at all. Just want to keep up with the spirit of the original MSXdev created by pitpan! Everyone here (and at other MSX communities, of course) *is* an active part of the scene! ;-)

Hey, you can vote what you want, but I think all games can have errors because developers are all human.

In any case, the big error for me is comparing them with the big companies' games, like Konami, Compile, etc, in a development contest.

I know that :) My human me has errors too. Anyway I didn't vote the humans, just the games. My votes for the humans are really high, but that's another contest.


Well, that wasn't me.

Again, we agree more than you think. But what you did is not correct. You and many other may not like Kralizec opinion but only reading the posts in this forum there is no reason to ban them as you did.

Anyway, trying to confront "what I THINK is right" (my point of view) versus "what IS right" (your point of view) is unfair. What leads me to a simple conclusion: as this is your forum you rule it for your own purposes. Which is correct, but do not say you do it for the sake of the MSX community.

So: thanks for letting me see the truth behind Karoshi's forums.


We should evolve. Now that there are more experienced developers, we should increase the quality standards and demand more quality in games.

Congratulations Nerlaska :)

If I have been in any help to make you see some things more clear, I'm more than happy!



I really love your vehemence on helping us to know what in your opinion is right and what do you think we should do! It is pretty enthusiastic from you and really inspiring!

People who want an evolution can, of course, lead the evolution by themselves: those wanting highest quality standards, higher specs, etc. The fact is that the MSXdev is an active development contest with its spirit and history behind, and it seems that is somehow easier to try to modify it, change its spirit, or spoil it, than trying to make a brand new contest or development space by themselves. So I agree with you on that some people could want a contest this or that way: for those, ok, go ahead and make it. I will be eager to participate! ;-).

That's what a forum is for. Exposing different points of view. I also love your vehemence on imposing what in your opinion is right,  keeping saying that you are right and mine is just an opinion, reducing the problem to only two cases (MrSpock vs the World) and banning controversial opinions. Of course, I am being sarcastic. I don't love at all this way of ruling an open MSX forum. Unless, again, it is not an open MSX forum and this is just sort of private Karoshi forum allowing other opinions as long as they don't disagree with yours.


Ok. So everybody not agreeing with you should leave. Just one final question: is this your personal point of view or the official Karoshi point of view?

Not at all ;). If you don't like an stablished contest as it is, perhaps its not for you: is it really that hard to see?

If you don't like the oscars, prolly you'll like another events. If you don't like football and prefer basketball, will you try to change football concepts? If you don't want Oreos, would you try to change their flavor to your favourite cookie them to fit your taste? ;)



On which particular statement?

I was just telling what should be done to improve it (yeah, yeah, in my opinion, and all the stuff you said to me several times). Actually, I did NOT say that I don't like it, I just said that it could be better. So, I can't even express this opinion? I must accept the contest as it is or leave? Why? Because you (Jon) says so or because Karoshi officially says so?

Why can we discuss (as you did in previous editions) about expanding to MegaROM or not, about accepting MSX2 or not, about whatever but NOT about the quality of the games? Why can you propose changes in the specs but not that the contest should evolve?

Again, I repeat my former question: Is this your personal opinion or the official Karoshi point of view? Should I expect, in the future, your personal opposition or official Karoshi banning? Am I just disagreeing with Jon Cortazar or am I breaking the Karoshi forum rules?

Congratulations to Nerlaska. PRETTY KINGDOM It's a good game and (a few of ) us have recognized so.

About Destroyer:

First of all my apologizes. I'll never use hybrid modes anymore for games ... just because i'll not code any other game. I hate to be polemic and prefer to be clear regarding seriuos matters. Anyway this is not too serious for me. This is not my bussines and only enjoy coding small progs and music  altough I'm not game coder nor musician. Also anyone cannot develop a game. I'm one of them.

Qualified as a game:

- With no music ??? Sure???
- Not Standad (33% OK)
- Too hard ??? sure??
- Rubbernecking / My TV is very big...

I've noticed that many of the aswers to the contest are related to voting process an most of them comes from people that has no other post before. So no interest in games nor developement, isn't it?

I accept critics, not snubs. If you dislike the way I've used my MSXs (where I made my tests) and for you that means the whole work deserve to be void please, explain your reasons. I'll be gratefull if that could be done in constructive way. Two of my three MSX run Destoyer perfectly, my dear Toshiba HX20 don't. Yes, rules says "MSX compliance". Ok... then the game must be disqualified. Agree with this.


Jon Cortázar:

I think that he acts as forum/contest admin. He explained his reasons and I've not more to say. Agree with this.

Contest itself:

Nice! really intersting to see how Artrag has develop that ultra fast scroll for Uridium, perharps trying to improve Genesis Dawn of a new Day.  Jon Cortazar's Mr. Cracksman is a pleasure graphic. Nerlaska's Pretty kingdom is really pretty., Zero shows us VDP tricks most of us probably have never seen....

And sorry, I've not voted because I've not play all the games 100%, no time for check the code tricks nor endings and other stuff. I cannot qualify your work if I've not seen before.

My apologies, I didn't read this sentence. I was talking on the sentences about "Kralizec comments are not admissible and being banned" and about "if you don't like the contest rules or my opinions, go elsewhere".

I can't recognize those two particular quotes with the word "ban" and the sentence "if you don't like the contest rules or my opinions", but perhaps it is just me that I can't find those. Can you please link them to me? Thnx in advance!

Anyway, if it is about the post in the voting thread, the whole text is supported by Karoshi MSX Community administrators, that is pitpan and me, who are responsible of the organization of the MSXdev contests. Hope this helps!

As for the "ban" word, sure, you didn't use it. I was talking about the text you say. So, it is official. Good to know.
As tor the other sentence, I was referring to sentences like

"So I agree with you on that some people could want a contest this or that way: for those, ok, go ahead and make it."
"If you don't like an stablished contest as it is, perhaps its not for you"
"(...)helping us to know what in YOUR opinion is right and what do you think WE should do"
"so: you don't like this place? Just left us alone" (to Kralizec)
"Go spoiling the fun elsewhere" (to Kralizec)

A fair summary of these sentences is "If your opinion do not agree with ours, go elsewhere". So, is this a formal Karoshi statement?

And, Jon, please, read again my first texts in the thread and think before replying. I just disagreed with some parts of Karoshi administration (banning Kralizec or however you want to call it) and said that the contest should evolve to higher quality standards. It is not too late to say "hey, maybe we should take into account these opinions" or "we personally didn't like Kralizec votings but, hey, I should not have acted as a moderator and invalidate their votes".

MrSpock : do you have really examined the way that Kralizec has voted ? I've mentioned 2 reasons why this vote seems me unfair. These reasons 'explain' only why there is no any game in this vote with a score above 6.75 (comparison with Konami games) and why 2 games (Destroyer and Zero) get only 1 point (Toshiba VDP compatibility). With some good will, I can understand the 1 point for the 'experimental' games of Nitrofurano. But what about the 1 point for 3 other games, including the winner ? ....

Do you realize that the Texas Instruments VDP itself is not compatible with this "mode"? The sprite circuitry will fuck up and sprites 8-31 become unusable.

Just because the effect is documented in books published by Texas Instruments at a later date, does not mean it is part of the MSX standard. The MSX models that contain the Toshiba VDP are all certified by ASCII Corporation to be MSX standard compatible.

That said, the V9938 is the only VDP which can RELIABLY mirror the tables. So I suggest games that use this mode get a MSX2 requirement. If they use hardcoded 98h/99h I/O addresses, the requirement should be MSX2+.

Ok, now I think you have been specific enough! :)


Those sentences are me anwering questions to you, aren't they? And I really agree on them! As MSX developer and user and as Karoshi MSX Community Admin!
- Yes, if some people want to make a contest with some particular specs and rules, it is free to do it.
- Yes, if you don't like a contest as it is concepted, perhaps you should consider if it is for you or not.
- Yes, I really think you state clearly your opinions and thoughts about what's right, although it is obvious that differ with mine. And that's not something bad!



Again, as I've said before, the whole text of the voting thread "is supported by Karoshi MSX Community administrators, that is pitpan and me, who are responsible of the organization of the MSXdev contests". No problem to remark it anytime you need it!



I read your (and everyone's) text really carefuly. I am not the one entering flames or having misunderstandings because of fast reading: indeed, I prefer to read every coment and react to them as precisely as I can. And, *again*, you think there have been an overreaction from me, when acting as part of the MSXdev organization, on the fact of skipping the votes from Kralizec into the contest. I understand that: and again, please understand that I disagree with you in that, and that I really think a post like that was needed in that situation.

Anyway, we can keep like this forever, if you want. But I'm really starting to feel as our conversation leads to no place...

Hey, mars! Stay polite... you have been supporting, but also making statements somehow out of the place. And this one is *really* unacceptable. Take this as an avice, and please, do not spread that kind of assumptions.

Sorry, but yellow card!

Jon, you're right, it's excessive, I will remove this part of my sentence.

PREVIOUS POST MODIFIED

Toni, Jon: please, stop arguing!

Jon as admin has been pretty clear about forum and contest rules. That's is.

Take it or leave it. I mean it.

I'm not joking.

This is a thread to say "congratulations" to the winner, Nerlaska (a nice guy, Alberto,  that I don't hate at all, btw)

I have no problems with my vote invalidation. It's ok.
:)

This is no place to give further explanations about my vote, clear as water on the other hand.

I myself haven't still played all of the games. But I can tell you in advance that I will probably disagree with Kralizec votes. I can even disagree with their opinion. But my point was that this is no reason for an official message like the one that Karoshi has posted.

Nonetheless, I just will send another message regarding this subject and stop. I feel that me and Jon are somehow spoiling this thread which should be about the games and not the forum or the dev contest itself.

Yes, you are right. I just wanted to be sure if I was "arguing" with Jon or with Karoshi admins to know if I should be here or not. Now I know.

Please, accept my apologies for spoiling this thread.

Thank you for your understanding. It is not easy to be an admin, and I really celebrate you agree on that: thanks, really.



I also agree. The votes themselves were clear: perhaps Kralizec could enter with community members into a debate about some aspects of the MSXdev, but not that way, as a harsh last-day vote. Why not working together on that?


Thanks for posting, it's really appreciated!



There is nothing to apology for: I understand your points, and hope you understood mine as user and also as admin and contest organizer. And I agree we've been probably spoiling the fun out of the contest: sorry for that and back to the games!

This is my last message in this thread.

However, Ramones, this was no longer about you although the word "Kralizec" appeared in all of my messages. I wanted to clarify Karoshi position. Now that I know what Karoshi forums actually are, I know that only two options are possible: to agree with them and stay or to leave.

I don't feel confortable with current Karoshi philosophy, so I'll probably leave for some time and decide if I definitely quit. Too many people leaving these days :-(

Again, sorry for spoiling this thread.

Alberto (Nerlaska), I promise I will play your game and congratulations!

That comment is really true, but I don't see it as a bad behaviour, so why the categorical tone? ;) That's how every club, work team, organization, forum, social network, friend crew, etc, work! That's why there are different contests, communities, and ways to live our love to the MSX System! You can choose which one fits you better!

Just wanted to precise that. That's all... or not? ;) (again, starting to be tired about this!)

You don't need to apologize  :-\ And you're still free to use that mode, tho I can't see the point on it. Same way I'm free to think that I can't vote your game (made with effort) same way as I can vote other games (made with effort also) that took the extra effort and work to be fully compatible.
It's just my opinion and should have the same value as one that gives you a 10. And nobody should apologize for that.

And if you have fun with making stuff and it's not too serious for you as you said, more reason to keep doing it! After all, the only think for what we'll be useful soon is to serve as Soylent Green, so we should try to have fun all the time we can. Not always so easy, right.
On cathegories votes, I was clear what points of your games I liked more and which less. As I did with any other. But globally I can't give you the same points as I gave to others. A -1 penalty would have been ok? -2? -3? Where's the line? That's subjective.

I submited own stuff to some places (other than MSX and not even programming stuff) and as long as I take part on a contest, I accept there must be different opinions about my stuff. They usually think it's crap, i'm used and can live with it :)

That shouldn't make you stop having fun doing what you like to do. Not if N people likes your stuff and only 1 doesn't like one part of it. No matter what one does, never will be good for EVERYBODY, that's life. If you can make something that more people likes that dislikes, I can't see why that's so bad and you should leave it. In my example, if I make some musics for fun and nobody likes (tho i put lot effort on it), that won't stop me from making musics (yeh, it's a menace! muahaha!)

To be clear. I would like to see more stuff from you (and others), but I TOTALLY PREFER if it's 100% compatible. And if it's not, cause some mistake or bug, that's ok. But if it's cause you choiced to make it not compatible, then again you're free, but i'm sorry I can't really see the point for that.

Me too.

@MSXKun Perfectly explained an totally agree. I enjoyed coding the game a lot (80% - 2007) and now ( 20% - 2014) it was not so funny due to lack of time. Anyway Thanks for taking you time. Not needed, but helps a lot :)

Also I understand Kralizec voting btw.

PS: Ive not heard music from you, should I? or... I'm taking very seriously your menace :D.
PS: Please, hear KNM's Destroyer theme. IS A MUST!

Ty for understanding Wyz. And yes, I feel it was kinda needed.

Congratulations to Nerlaska!!  :D  ... and congratulations to all others contestants for their hard work!!   :)

I encourage all of you to continue creating new games. There are some projects that couldn't be finished before the deadline,
but I hope that we can see them completed as soon as possible ... maybe for the next MSXDEV'15?  ;D

Congratulations to Nerlaska team for a wonderful game!!!

Congrats to Nerlaska.

Now, time to cheers with some beers, cool down, take a deep breath and keep enjoying MSX Gaming and coding.

Hope for new projects in 2015. Our passion for this system and the strong of our characters and vehement determinations worths it all.

Raise those beers up and LONG LIVE MSXDEV! :

KNM
ALIVE!

Congratulations to Nerlaska for his winning game Pretty Kingdom! :)

I wanted to cast votes for the contest but the time and work have passed over me  ;D

I liked very much the graphics in Nayade Resistance, and I'm pretty amazed by the arcade style of Jawbreaker 2.

Great scroll in Uridium and pretty original "landscape" mode of Destroyer.

Still I need to try and play some hours the games from Dioniso, Impulse9 and Relevo and the experimental ones from Nitrofurano.

Ramones .. I love you too :) XD (and I'll take you at any RU by band :-) )

And all the people in this forum .. thank you for your support and for your congratulations.

The winner are all the MSX users here and this must be the spirit.
My goal is create a Konami MegaROM and see Armando tears of emotion :) but Jon is the culprit because he doesn't let me to exceeds the 32Kb XD

Jokes apart...

I hope MSXdev forum Karoshi and have clarified the controversies with those who have displeased.
We have to look to the future and is currently MSXdev the contest more titles harvest. And we know there are more competitions, there will be something good in this.
Thank you Jon (and PitPan in the shadows)

And the power that has been given me .. I HAVE THE POWER! XD

wow, i got shocked on how this thread got almost in a Godwin’s level, i never imagined that - people, we are a family here! ;) - and yes, let’s everybody keep start having ideas and coding something for msxdev'15, msxdev'16, ..., msxdev'55, on and on! :)

I apologize beforehand for throwing fuel on the fire here, but I think this is too important to ignore. Personally, I'd like to stay neutral on the matter even though I have my opinions. This is an objective observation.
I was curious why Artrag was so upset about the banning of Ramones's vote, it seemed like an exaggeration. Then I had a look at the global ratings for clues.


Both have 20 votes total.
Pretty Kingdom: 8.0775
Uridium: 7.8575

Ramones banned vote:
Pretty Kingdom: 1
Uridium: 6.75

Result including Ramones:
Pretty Kingdom: 7.74
Uridium: 7.80

Hap, you don't have read this comment by Artrag on MRC :


So, his reaction is not about the consequences of counting or not the Ramones vote, but it's a position of principle.

Besides, I had myself made the same verification BEFORE the deadline and I could have reacted by a counter-vote to neutralize Ramones vote, but I have not done that also by principle, first because I had decided to not vote this year, secondly because it should be inconsistent to make something that I disapprove for another person.

I'm a bit late but...

First of all, congrats to Nerlaska for winning the contest ;)
 
About all the other stuff already commented, just my point of view:

I think invalidating Ramones/Kralizec votes wasn't a good choice. Anybody can agree or not with them, but what is not fair is invalidating them because they are not "nice". Once you give people the right to vote, you do it with all the consequences.

What it's important after all, much more than numbers (which can lead to (un)fair comparisons), is making a ranking to decide which is the best entry for most of the people... so, maybe it's a better idea, to skip numeric scores and just provide an ordered list for all games. It just gives a clear list of people preferences about all contest entries. Besides that, only the games themselves have to be considered to cast the votes, not the efforts nor the authors.

If the organization had disqualified non fully compatible entries (as it's stated at the rules), all this mess wouldn't have happened at all. The same happens with incomplete/beta entries... although the authors think they are supporting the contest by presenting them at all means, I personally think that those entries harm contest reputation. I also understand that saying this edition has finished with 10 entries is cooler than 5, of course... but I think it's better to finish them properly (needless to say that next competition would start with 5 complete games instead of 0).

I agree with being positive... but also with being critical, so that we can get better and better games in the future.

If that's correct, the matter gets even worse...  :-\

Does your list include ARTRAG votes??... I think he deleted them.

Mars, you keep talking about respect about others and their work, but at the same time you keep on pushing against Ramones/Kralizec, again and again... you both think different about the quality of MSXDev games (and MSX in general, for sure), that's it... it really seems it's you who hates him/them. I think we should be respectful before claiming for respect.

Because Hap has exposed something that I had decided to not expose, I've been forced to show that everyone (including you or me) could have the same extremely negative approach as Ramones, but fortunaly, it's not the case. I have respected the spirit of the contest in my choice to not 'counter-vote'. Seriously, you should have preferred that I would have 'counter-voted' ? I don't think so.

Have you been forced? really?  ???

Anyway, I was not talking about just your previous post... and not only about your posts here at Karoshi.

You said you wouldn't vote and you didn't... that's being consistent... what I don't understand is why you (like other people) decided not to vote from the beginning. How that helps the contest??

I should have preferred non-public votes (by private mail) and publication of these votes only after the deadline. I think this way some problems could been avoided.

For myself looking from the outside, the problem is obvious.

People takes too seriously the harsh comments from some people known for making harsh comments. The course of action should be the same as ever in forums "don't feed the troll"

Given that there is people trying to sabotage what they doesn't like, it was a big mistake to not have judges.

What Ramones did was incredibly unpolite and harsh, but he has the right to vote because the contest allows it.

Secondly, the contest explicitely says TMS9918/9928 video processor or compatible, so if the entries doesn't work in Toshiba VDP, this is implicitely allowed by the contest.

Thirdly, exercising an entry for full MSX compatibility in a non-commercial contest like this one simply puts too much burden in new developers, and it's harsh to demand full compatibility with some obscure machine. THIS IS NOT THE ACID TEST! it's simply a contest for fun! don't let us lose these new developers just because one or two people.

Myself I'll write a new MSX game very soon (well as soon as I've free time), just for the sake of fun ;)

This is exactly what we do in #msxdev Compo.

+1

The problem is people don't understand what "compatible" means. TMS9918-compatible does not mean "exactly like TMS9918", but it means "according to the TMS9918 specifications". MSX is all about compatibility, not about exact ways of doing things. With the reasoning used by some people here, YM2149 is not compatible with AY-3-8910, which it obviously is. Just like the T6950 is TMS9918-compatible.

But if the rules say "TMS9918 or compatible" this is an ambiguous statement. Is the compatibility required, or can you choose to only work on TMS9918? The meaning of "or" is ambiguous, but the intention is clear: to be MSX v1.0 compatible.

We already discussed about the tms9918 in this (http://karoshi.auic.es/index.php/topic,2551.15.html) thread not long ago.

I also mentioned some weeks ago I would use the mix mode and no one said anything.

Now everyone is complaining and voting 1 for some games which used this feature of the tms9918.

Again: coders spend a loooooooot of time in these games and this year we didn't get many feedback: feedback is what motivates us to keep doing games. Instead of appreciating our dedication of coding games for you all, some people look for the mistakes, problems, controvertial points and cast their votes or make their comments just (mostly) taking this into account.

I am not a big company, I don't have a team working for me the whole day, the whole week, the whole month, the whole year. I don't have the resources a big company has. I live in a flat, stand up at 6:00 for going to work, and when I come home I keep coding a game for you (and for me). This means also weekends closed in my flat just coding, drawing, etc ... And I got twice 1 point. Hahahahaha. I laughed at first and didn't want to say anything at all but I'm getting tired of this behaviour and the same problems in the forum as always.

I also read in another forum that my game stinks and more nice things like this one. I can understand many people don't like my game(s) and it is something totally normal. I understand that if people don't like my game, they cast a "low" vote, obviously. But, what I find childish is the way some people comment a game, or how people have complaint about the tms9918 features used in some games.

If you take into account the rules, you can vote 1 for every game, if you want to. But that's very poor for someone to do. I can understand a 4, a 5, a 6 ... but 1 point ... :) please. I am good with the 4th position.

I don't know if you realize what these few people do to the MSX community.

I left the MRC community because of these people who just cause this damage, right after the Kralizec incident, as comradeship.

I repeat it: I can understand a low punctuation if you don't like a game. I accept the critics, when they are constructive.

Well, I don't want to read always the same people discussing things like they had the only truth. And I don't want to code games for people who don't appreciate my effort.

Code your games yourselves. Bye.

No, that's not true Dioniso, and you know. Not everyone. Some have one opinion, and some have another one, and I think that's ok.


You also mentioned on the same post that you weren't open to discuss about it.


I spent way mooooooooooooooooore on stuff that people didn't care a crap. And i'm not telling they're just trying to destroy the MSX community. I assume it's not interesting for them but if I do it cause i like it, I keep doing it.
In the other hand, that doesn't mean that everybody should do the same, everybody's different and some can accept things better than others. I don't wanna mean that I don't understand what you think and feel about it and I'm sorry.

I could have said the game works perfect and that I don't care at all about it not working on some machines. I could have said that it happens always, with every game now and back on the old days. I could have said that rules allowed it and even NES games if you want. But it would have been a lie. I'm not like that. I voted visuals, audio and so. So you know what I like on your game and what not.


None of the other contestants are, but they took the effort to make the game compatible. Everything I said to Wyz is also for you. I like some of the stuff you do and some other not so much, as with any others. And I accept it when it's the other way.
I have my opinions about compatibility as I have an ass. It's perfectly ok if you have yours and it's different. I had to vote with MINE not with YOURS. Why if I put you a 4 is respecteable but an 1 is not? If I give you like over... 5, then my opinion is valid. But If I give you 1, my opinion is not? So, my opinion is valid only when YOU want?


Congratulations. Lot of people here has no job, included myself. At least, by now, I live on a flat too, not in the street like many people lately.


No. you didn't get 1 point. You got many points. The other votes doesn't count? MANY people here gave you points. Why If a good number of users thinks, "good game!" your reaction is.. "meh, points, nothing wonderful there" but when one (or two) people gives you 1 point, then you think about throwing all your hobby and all what you like to do thru the window?
I'm closed in my room way more than weekends and sometimes for less reward, but that doesn't stop me to have fun and I wouldn't care less if ONLY 1 or 2 people complains for ONLY 1 aspect of ONLY 1 game I made.


Well, your game doesn't stink, I think. It's my opinion. But if I didn't like it, why is it ok if I give it low vote and it's no ok if i think it deserves the low vote for non working on all MSX machines as rules say? Both reasons are a matter of personal opinion anyway.

What can't I complain about a game that doesn't work properly on my machine, uses a mode that allows you take a bit of advantage over games that use the VDP in a standard way and you know IN ADVANCE that it won't work? Would you like a game that I code and I put a Poke that hangs your machine "just because I want". I say "Hey, this is gonna hang those machines, ok? But please, don't complain."


No, it seems it's kinda forbidden ;) Sorry for the black humor... Maybe the rules should clearly say that minimum score is 6, so everybody can be happy.


So your game is not that bad then, huh? :) See, seems that you didn't get just an 1, or you wouldn't have finished 4th. And I'm not complaining to all this people that gave you points cause their opinion is totally respecteable even if i don't agree with it. I would like to know why I'm less that them and my opinion is not, wrong or not.


The fact that I think a game should be compatible or we'll be covered with games that sometimes work, sometimes not, sometimes only on emulator, sometimes only on 1 specific emulator and so on... it doesn't mean I don't appreciate your or any others effort. But as someone already said, it's not a contest of effort.


You said you weren't open to discuss. Should I have to assume that you pretend to have the only truth then? I don't think you do (pretend that, i mean). NOBODY has the only truth (mostly cause probably there's none, but that's another question). The past sentence it's not the only truth either. :P


And what about the ones who DO appreciate it? The most of us, even if you still think that i don't (I'm not all the MSX users reincarnated in one person)
I'm sorry you confused two unrelated things. And I hope you still code stuff. If you were here, I'd made you drunk until you do. Believe it or not, nobody here is against you. If you do a nice game, your game is nice, if you do a crappy game, your game is crappy. In both cases YOU ARE STILL WELCOME. And I can tell you here, on MRC, on private or in Salvame Deluxe if you want.

I have not had time to check your games out, because I'm coding very hard on my own MSX projects at the moment. But I'd just like to make clear that I'm not complaining about any of the games. I'm sure most, if not all, of the games are awesome!

I am however defending the MSX standard compatibility against those that say Toshiba T6950 is somehow not MSX compatible.

That said, it's not difficult or tedious to write MSX games properly. You don't have to be a big company to write MSX games properly. Every time I hear developers that write incompatible games complain about time or effort, but seriously it does not take effort to write PSG R#7 properly, or to put a "MSX2 requirement" sticker on your game which uses mirrored pattern mode.

As GuyveR800 has mentioned in another post, there's some confusion when speaking about "TMS9918 or compatible" while at the same time it is also mentioned "Other compatibility tests will be performed in different configurations, including MSX, MSX2, MSX2+ and Turbo-R computers." and also "If a game does not run properly in all MSX computers with at least 16 KB RAM it could be disqualified by the organization."

When you know that all (? or almost all) undocumented features of TMS9918 are supported by the higher official VDP's (9938 - 9958), the case Toshiba T6950 is obviously a source of discussion. Is the complete TMS9918 compatibility more important than the official MSX1 compatibility ?

I must regret that the rules of the contest don't include guiding lines on this matter for the vote, but in my humble opinion, a penalty must be proportionnal to the 'crime'. We don't know exactly how many computers were equipped with the Toshiba VDP. Let's say maybe 10% of all MSX1 selled computers and therefore probably 5% globally when taking in account the MSX2 and higher machines.

You can also understand that the pride of a coder lies in showing how he can use undocumented features to produce a nice game. With this approach, 90 % of the MSX1 machines are concerned, and the coder should be rewarded in this proportion. That's what I call a positive approach of the problem. Maybe it will help for future MSXdev' contests.

I'm happy with the result, I practically coincides with my preferences in the voting, except maybe Jawbreaker II deserved a better position. Congratulations to the winner and to all participants for their work.