Karoshi MSX Community

Archivo (pre 2018) => English Boards => Suggest a Game => Mensaje iniciado por: mäsäxi en 24 de Enero de 2006, 07:37:36 pm

Título: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 24 de Enero de 2006, 07:37:36 pm
once again.... Pllllllease convert my fave game!  :P

(http://iep.ath.cx/cad/images/b/bionicc.png)


more pics:
http://www.system16.com/cybercade/games/bcommand.html

Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: Harrison en 10 de Febrero de 2006, 11:38:01 am
A really wonderful game ;D
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: BodyHammeR en 10 de Febrero de 2006, 01:47:53 pm
Bionic Commando? Oh do you mean ヒットラーの復活 (Hitler no Fukkatsu: Top Secret) aka The Resurrection of Hitler: Top Secret?

The world needs more 'politically incorrect' games! ;)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 12 de Febrero de 2006, 05:26:18 pm
I didn´t saw hitler on my amiga... maybe Amiga is politically correct machine...  ;D Thought I haven´t completed Amiga version, so I cannot be sure.
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: BodyHammeR en 13 de Febrero de 2006, 01:36:56 pm
I was referring to the Japanese Nintendo Famicom game ;)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: ARTRAG en 15 de Febrero de 2006, 11:22:07 am
Bionic commando is far away outside the MSX2 capabilities.

I propose again to do an AD&D port with improved graphc and additional features.
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: jltursan en 15 de Febrero de 2006, 02:33:16 pm
So, about the AD&D port, are you talking about a MSX1 port or only for MSX2 and higher?. The game seems pretty doable using MSX1.
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: ARTRAG en 15 de Febrero de 2006, 06:13:19 pm
For sure it is doable in MSX1, but in this case I wouldn't
see any real improvement with respect to the original game,
and I have already an intellivision emulator to play at it ;D

The port in MSX2 would be great, even using scr4 for the dungeon.

I think that scr5 whould be also doable but a much more
difficult as the scrolling should have at least two speeds. :(

Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 17 de Febrero de 2006, 11:10:56 am
http://ep128.hu/Games/Bionic%20Comamndo.htm

to see some spectrum screens.... I am not waiting 100% arcade perfect graphics for MSX Bionic Commando.......

by the way.. from that link you can also find complete screenshot map of Bionic Commando to help programming....  ;D 

 it´s at the bottom of the page, just click "Térkép 1".  :)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 17 de Febrero de 2006, 11:12:12 am
and many other arcade games were too outside of MSX or MSX2 capabilities and still they do exist on MSX....  ;D
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: Jon_Cortazar en 17 de Febrero de 2006, 12:34:40 pm
and many other arcade games were too outside of MSX or MSX2 capabilities and still they do exist on MSX....  ;D
Totally agree  :god:
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 17 de Febrero de 2006, 05:27:37 pm
if game is done with 8 pixel scrolling (haven´t played spectrum version, but it surely has such "blocky" scrolling:) background graphics are not too hard to convert as arcade perfect to MSX using SCREEN 1 or 2. :whip:  As you can see from this link I mentioned at the start of this topic:

http://www.system16.com/cybercade/games/bcommand.html

 sjp:)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 17 de Febrero de 2006, 05:34:03 pm
Except some colour shades, arcade background mostly looks much like MSX SCREEN 2 game background.  :god: Oh, our Lord MSX!! :god:
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 17 de Febrero de 2006, 05:36:54 pm
Nasty Capcom, why you didn´t made MSX conversion.... If Bionic Commando was Konami game, we could have Another Konami´s Megacartridge, Bionic Commando!! Bad Capcom......  >:(
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: jltursan en 17 de Febrero de 2006, 06:07:52 pm
Citar
haven´t played spectrum version, but it surely has such "blocky" scrolling

Yes, it has some kind of blocky scrolling when commando reaches the screen edges. Seems pretty easy to implement under MSX1 & 2. Maybe someone could give a try with the graphic design and draw some tiles... ;)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: ARTRAG en 17 de Febrero de 2006, 06:30:04 pm
Actually thos game stay outside the MSX capabilities......

How do you want to implement the extensible arm ? Using sprites or what?
On spectrum the game draws the background in B&W for any character, arm included, but on MSX you cannot do the same, unless you don’t duplicate the speccy game that already exists (and is ugly).

On MSX2, using scr5, you could do the arm using VDP copy on the background, but, scrolling and drawing cannot go together on the poor VDP, as the scrolling is on charge to the VDP copy as well.

On MSX2+ or turbo R, things could go fine, as you can use HW scroll and reserve the VDP copy for the arm and the other animations, but the HW is a little bit demanding, don’t you think?

So what do you propose?
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: jltursan en 17 de Febrero de 2006, 08:44:43 pm
Citar
How do you want to implement the extensible arm ?

Hehe, I was talking only about the scroll ;D

Of course the rest of the game could be a PITA. But hey!, implement the extensible arm with sprites is, after all, a good idea. The arm always (IIRC) extends over the head of the main character and never in horizontal direction; not sure right now...

Hard job anyway! ::)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 17 de Febrero de 2006, 11:48:40 pm
yep, bionic arm extends OVER head for swinging yourself upwards or on 45 degree angle upwards to the left and right, but you can use it also sideways to left and right as a weapon to knock out enemys (thought they recover in next second)...

I have been thinking about bionic arm before I posted this topic....

so could it be nice idea to use hardware sprites for the arm when shooting arm UPwards, and software sprites to make arm go left or right? As when you shoot arm sideways, it extends horizontally at 0 degree angle.

I know, that if we use ONLY software sprites for arm, arm´s background may look kind of blocky, but if every section of arm´s background could have same main colour as scenery under arm has, like arm´s background should be green when it is used against the tree leaves and so on.

And it doesn´t look as "bad" if we can make arm´s background have more colours than just one, just like it is done in MSXdev´05´s "The Cure".  ;)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: Jon_Cortazar en 18 de Febrero de 2006, 07:38:46 pm
This thread remembers me other old Magaman discussion, hehehe, but anyway... any game is doable in MSX. I just made a little work on it, to see how it could look on MSX1. Here you have some fake shots:

(http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/karoshicorp/foro/bionicc1.gif) (http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/karoshicorp/foro/bionicc2.gif)

Again this is my point of view on how to face a conversion. Probably there are other ways but I think this fits the best. Again, think about how is the original Nemesis (arcade) and the MSX conversion of it: comparin' both games, the MSX one could look as crap, but is a GREAT game. Why?. Because it has the original spirit of the game within, and because it do it the best the MSX can: that is the best way to face a conversion of a game with higher specs than the MSX have(always talkin' about MSX1)

(http://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/karoshicorp/foro/bionicc3.gif)

The main character would be done using sprites (2 in a row), the same for some of the enemies. Enemies with no movement (or just objects) can be made using patterns. The same goes for all shoots in the game. The expanding arm frames can be done using patterns too (just remember Athletic Land). The thing is that all patterns for "background" tiles should be blank: I tried to hide that problem making a bi-color background (first bank=blue, 2nd and 3rd=green), and a line of mountains that divide that bg color. When horizontal scrolling (8x8 pixels) the mountains will scroll pixel by pixel due to redefinition. When vertical scrolling, that horizon won't move at all. It's tricky, beacuse as it's divided thinkin' on how pattern banks work, there is no process time thinkin' on what bg must have the tile, in the first bank will be blue just by printing it. Anyway, this conversion (as all back-specs conversion) should be studied a lot (more than I did), because I do not know the game in-depths so probably other stages will work differently and i'm missing something ;). But anyway I think this way the game will work and would be fun.

Again, it's better to think this way. Note that the gb, NES, arcade, speccy versions are all VERY different, because they try to make the game fit to the hardware specs. If we think Bionic Commando is imposible to make on MSX(1), then Salamander or Twinbee are impossible to make too ;)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: jltursan en 18 de Febrero de 2006, 07:52:14 pm
As always you've done an excelent analysis (and everytime you're faster, too!) of the game, Jon!. Sure the next levels are even more tricky to implement; but if the spectrum has a version, the MSX could have for sure a better one....or maybe I'm a bit enthusiastic here?... ::)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 18 de Febrero de 2006, 08:01:22 pm
You are not only enthusiastic here, jltursan!  ;D

Those "fake" screenshots look already very promising!! ( why they must be called as fake... they are real screenshots! ;))

They look much like old Sega SG and other similar systems´ megagame screenshots! Ingame shot has really nice old feeling as tree leaves don´t have any details. :) But I must say I envy a bit the spectrum conversion as speccy has tree leaves!  >:( Bad Speccy.   :D
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: Jon_Cortazar en 18 de Febrero de 2006, 10:42:45 pm
They look much like old Sega SG

Sure, this design is for an MSX1 conversion, so... ;)

Thanx for your reactions. A single-stage concept proof ROM would be nice, but it will be a very time-consuming task... cmptr:)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: KNM en 19 de Febrero de 2006, 12:56:35 pm
As always...I love this man !! in a couple of words...A MASTER :god: :god: :god:

KNM
Straigth man,of course... ;D ;D ;
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 23 de Junio de 2006, 02:03:59 pm
  because I do not know the game in-depths so probably other stages will work differently and i'm missing something ;). But anyway I think this way the game will work and would be fun.

I read this old topic again, and wanted to add that later stages will work a bit differently, as they don´t have horizon (everything happens indoors).

And as many people seem to worry about "ugly" software sprites as they may have "blocky" look as characters have monochrome "box" around them, I will say, that Konami (and other companies too) games have "blocky" software sprites too, and usually you can´t see anyone complaining about them...  ;)  One of the many examples would be your arrow in Maze Of Galious...  arrow has black box around it. :) I haven´t seen web page where someone is complaining about such thing.

I think bionic commando´s arm will look just fine in MSX conversion.  :)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: Leandro Correia en 23 de Junio de 2006, 08:26:32 pm
Sorry... I was making a preview screenshot too...  :P

How can I attach it in here?
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: Leandro Correia en 23 de Junio de 2006, 09:12:18 pm
I discovered it.
Just in case, my tip for the hook would be simple. Just use one or two sprites that would be going back and forth really fast along the hook trajectory. This way, it would look like a cable and would not be ugly. :)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 24 de Junio de 2006, 08:45:45 pm
<Long Live Sprites!>---  ;D

Your screenshots do look too Gooood!!!  ;) ;D

by the way, what program did you use to make those two fake MSX screenshots, Leandro?


Viejo, I think that the horizon is not the main element in Bionic Commando  ;) If it appears to be hard to make horizon which does not move along scrolling, then just drop it, it doesn´t affect to gameplay anyway.  :) Most players probably don´t notice at all your programming skills, if there would be realistic non-moving horizon. (how could they know it was very hard to make it? And even if they would know, would they care?) Playable game is the most important thing, nice graphical effects should come after good playability. I think it is enough, if background is just black behind the forest, and when you climb high enough, cyan sky would scroll from the top of the screen, I think it will look good even the horizon will scroll down when you climb upwards. I mean horizon will not scroll by itself, it is just part of the scrolling background.
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 24 de Junio de 2006, 09:01:30 pm
like this......

Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: jltursan en 25 de Junio de 2006, 01:40:01 am
Grrrreat pics!! :D
I like best the first version Leandro did. The horizon seems a bit unrealistic and the full trees creates a much darker and deeper scenary than with sky. Now we can add the Viejo dual sprites and we'll have a very good looking MSX version.
Btw, the bionic arm sprite trick seems clever; but it could be a bit tricky to implement. If the sprite must move at his maximum speed to fake a full extended arm, it can't be interrupt controlled; so you must implement a main game loop using the interrupt and move this kind of sprites out of it. Doable; but not easy...I think. ::)

Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 25 de Junio de 2006, 07:26:09 am
In many games horizon is made simple way just I did it, border of the sky and forest is clearly visible. Of course horizon can easily be made more realistic by brightening colours of the far away tree tops which are closest to horizon. (you can use other bright colours too than just green shades, if you want to make it realistic, it´s very easy, if you just know something about drawing and painting:)) And by adding some certain tree top-characters between trees and sky to "soften" horizon, now it is just cut straight line for simple example.
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: Leandro Correia en 25 de Junio de 2006, 04:54:09 pm
Before converting I added more contrast to the original screenshot in Photoshop. Experience tells that conversions turn better to the MSX1 pallete by doing that first. Then I used a simple tool made by myself in Blitz Basic for the conversion.
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 25 de Junio de 2006, 08:29:50 pm
by the way, this goes to off-topic, but is there anything like wonderful ZX PAINTBRUSH for making MSX"1" screens?  ??? If not, it would be VERY NICE tool, if someguy would like spend his time to program such like thing for MSX folks.  :) (sorry for going off-topic)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: jltursan en 26 de Junio de 2006, 04:15:16 pm
Citar
but is there anything like wonderful ZX PAINTBRUSH for making MSX"1" screens?

ZX Paintbrush is by far, much better than nothing designed for MSX. Right now I can only think in one program that uses the same canvas painting method, its name is "Age98"; but it never grown to a final version and looks (and works) like an alpha version. Not very useful, I'm afraid :(. It's better to draw using PC software like GIMP, Photoshop or PSP and then, export the result to MSX using some specific tools. Anyway, if you forget the use of canvas, you can use some tile based editing programs like Polka or ICVGM.
Anyone with enough VC++ programming skills outtathere? ;D
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: Jon_Cortazar en 26 de Junio de 2006, 04:19:29 pm
If I only had more time...  :'(
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: Leandro Correia en 26 de Junio de 2006, 04:38:11 pm
About the hook, a better solution...

Use one or two sprites that at each frame would appear randomly at any place inside the hook cable. If the game runs at 30 or more frames per second, that would also give an optical illusion of a hook. :)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 28 de Junio de 2006, 10:23:04 pm
maybe your random way is allright, cannot say anything before seeing one working on screen..  ;) it feels allright anyway.

But could it be better looking idea, if you move those 1-2 sprites from the arm towards the hook! As apart from punching enemies horizontally, telescope is used to climb UPwards or swing yourself sideways, and when you climb upwards, telescope arm of course winds itself up while you are rising, so that´s why i thought about if it would be nicer if sprites are moving from arm to hook. But again, cannot say how it will look like before seeing machine code version. 

Anyway, I feel like 1-2 fast moving, random or not, sprites surely will give good illusion of metallic moving telescope arm!  :)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: Leandro Correia en 30 de Junio de 2006, 03:11:31 pm
Trust me, Masaxi. It works. I tried a little demo before posting my idea. ;)
Título: Re: Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 30 de Junio de 2006, 10:49:03 pm
ok, I trust your word, leandro.  :)  :D
Título: Re:Bionic Commando...
Publicado por: mäsäxi en 01 de Julio de 2014, 08:03:40 pm
Does anyone still have Jon´s and Leandro´s mock up screens? They cannot be seen/downloaded anymore. Since there still isn´t Bionic Commando for MSX, I just wanted to see and enjoy mock up screens at least.  :)